Without Any Real Mention of Acts 15 and the Necessity of Public Teaching
From: Ben H.
To: Lyndon Dohms
Cc: List
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 5:11 AM
Subject: Clearing the Air
Greetings,
In the recent months, I have been outspoken in my dissatisfaction with the Elders' management of the events surrounding the recent excommunications. In several emails, I openly criticized their decisions, and offered--what seemed to me at the time--better suggestions for dealing with the conflict. Upon reflection, I've come to regret many of these comments, and have concluded that many of them were borne out of a hasty, immature, and proud spirit. Admittedly, I made virtually none of my concerns or suggestions known to them privately prior to submitting them publically, which was both uncharitible and--at times--bordering on a breach of membership vows. Accordingly, I've repented to them for these comments, and since they were public in nature, I'm publically repenting for the same.
Moreover, lest there be any confusion as to whether or not I explicitely support the Elders, I can say with a clear conscience that I support and uphold the recent excommunications. This is not to say that I do not have questions or may even disagree with some of what was done, but that as a whole, I can support them. I have found that many of my objections were easily answered when I talked to the Elders privately, and those that were not answered to my satisfaction were not weighty enough to make me think their decisions were unlawful. When I joined this church, part of the committment was to read the Elders with charity--indeed, Scripture is exceedingly plain on this point as well--and I believe that one can overlook many apparent or real mistakes of the Elders with a little bit of charity. Perhaps what became clearest to me is that in our joining this church, I granted a certain degree of expertise to the elders in matters of religion and church government in particular. Having granted that, I have a particularly high burden of proof to discharge when I want to disagree with them, and I don't see that I've met it, nor have those who have been excommunicated.
I hope my support of the Elders is sufficiently clear; if there are any questions, feel free to contact me privately.
Regards,
Ben H.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: Bob S.
To: Ben H.
Cc:List
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: Clearing the Air
Greetings Mr. H.
I am sorry, but if you are going to email everyone your public capitulation and self-criticism on the PPSA and the excommunications, including those of us who have been excommunicated when there was no need to, contacting you privately in return doesn’t cut it.
I too believe Scripture is exceedingly plain, so plain I shouldn’t have to talk to anybody privately about it. (Likewise if charity is not a two way street, it definitely is not a railroad job and an oath that harkens back to the High Commission for its precedent. That we don’t have a clue what the High Commission was, just goes to show how abysmal the ignorance is around here, much more that it could be seriously or realistically expected that the oath would be welcomed at all/by all. For that matter, it is unheard of for a defendant to be required to swear an oath period, never mind before trial.)
Paul says in Acts 20:20, much more v. 26,27 to the elders from Ephesus: "I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house. . . . Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God."
In other words, if we are going to make a big deal about Acts 15-16:4 in the PPSA or the Notices of Excommunications as was done, I don’t see Paul, Barnabas, Judas and Silas just dumping the letter from the synod on folks and saying 'get back to us, if you have any questions and we'll set up a private appointment.'
Rather I see a very public ministry of exhortation, encourgement and teaching going on regarding the "decrees for to keep" of that synod. Which is precisely what has not happened regarding the PPSA as was promised in March, (much more the PPSA is not what was promised in January.) If you don’t have a problem with all that, well, good on you, brother. But I do and I am not going to apologize about it. Neither do I have to. The apostles were out there in person having public teaching sessions in Acts 15 – as should have been done at least in Albany and Edmonton on the PPSA, but hasn’t been done and won’t be. (Why not? Because we’re the elders and we are not going to let excommunicated individuals set the agenda. Never mind, that you promised. Never mind that it is a biblical agenda. Never mind the First Term of Communion.) Again Paul and Silas didn’t say 'let's come over to a corner and talk about it privately' as the leading edge and main emphasis of their ministry.
Even further, if my comments on all this offends you, you need to realize that the oath was a declaration of war and the sooner you get used to it, the better. Neither did I start it, but God willing, I will finish it. No term of membership [should be "oath"] can be required of any child of God to the point they must surrender their conscience at the behest or dictate of any officer or any court in any church of Christ worthy of the name. It is that simple.
Neither will I even deny that this post is a disorderly way to go about business, but just like the public email scandals in January – March and June – July last year, you really need to complain to somebody else about that. They have already broken trail and set an example, much more destroyed the public perception of their credibility to equitably and forthrightly deal with the questions and issues that come before the church by their toleration of the behavior of their approved surrogates and proxies in those public scandals. Consequently disorder reigns which is the way the cookie crumbles in the real world, much more these are, as we have been told so often for so many different reasons and things, extraordinary times.
But enough for now.
Further Remarks on the PPSA can be found at:
http://reformedveritas.blogspot.com/2007/01/jan-4-07-intro-to-further-remarks-on-q1.html
and A Vindication of the Charge of Ministerial Unfaithfulness at:
http://reformedveritas.blogspot.com/2006/12/dec-28-06-vindication-of-charge-of.html
if the links are broken.
[As the above mentions, the same thing goes regarding a "Vindication of a Faithful Minister". While I never received it, if people are going to put me on a mass mailing list with a bunch of gratuitous congratulatory gush in reply to it, however sincere, you had better expect some kind of answer. Though I missed the opportunity at the moment to reply at large, I am throwing it in now for good measure. After all, one of the sayings attributed to John Knox, was: "spare no arrows." ]
Thank you very much.
cordially yours,
in Christ
Bob S.
A Disaffected Brethren
From: Ben H.
To: Lyndon Dohms
Cc: List
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 5:11 AM
Subject: Clearing the Air
Greetings,
In the recent months, I have been outspoken in my dissatisfaction with the Elders' management of the events surrounding the recent excommunications. In several emails, I openly criticized their decisions, and offered--what seemed to me at the time--better suggestions for dealing with the conflict. Upon reflection, I've come to regret many of these comments, and have concluded that many of them were borne out of a hasty, immature, and proud spirit. Admittedly, I made virtually none of my concerns or suggestions known to them privately prior to submitting them publically, which was both uncharitible and--at times--bordering on a breach of membership vows. Accordingly, I've repented to them for these comments, and since they were public in nature, I'm publically repenting for the same.
Moreover, lest there be any confusion as to whether or not I explicitely support the Elders, I can say with a clear conscience that I support and uphold the recent excommunications. This is not to say that I do not have questions or may even disagree with some of what was done, but that as a whole, I can support them. I have found that many of my objections were easily answered when I talked to the Elders privately, and those that were not answered to my satisfaction were not weighty enough to make me think their decisions were unlawful. When I joined this church, part of the committment was to read the Elders with charity--indeed, Scripture is exceedingly plain on this point as well--and I believe that one can overlook many apparent or real mistakes of the Elders with a little bit of charity. Perhaps what became clearest to me is that in our joining this church, I granted a certain degree of expertise to the elders in matters of religion and church government in particular. Having granted that, I have a particularly high burden of proof to discharge when I want to disagree with them, and I don't see that I've met it, nor have those who have been excommunicated.
I hope my support of the Elders is sufficiently clear; if there are any questions, feel free to contact me privately.
Regards,
Ben H.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: Bob S.
To: Ben H.
Cc:List
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: Clearing the Air
Greetings Mr. H.
I am sorry, but if you are going to email everyone your public capitulation and self-criticism on the PPSA and the excommunications, including those of us who have been excommunicated when there was no need to, contacting you privately in return doesn’t cut it.
I too believe Scripture is exceedingly plain, so plain I shouldn’t have to talk to anybody privately about it. (Likewise if charity is not a two way street, it definitely is not a railroad job and an oath that harkens back to the High Commission for its precedent. That we don’t have a clue what the High Commission was, just goes to show how abysmal the ignorance is around here, much more that it could be seriously or realistically expected that the oath would be welcomed at all/by all. For that matter, it is unheard of for a defendant to be required to swear an oath period, never mind before trial.)
Paul says in Acts 20:20, much more v. 26,27 to the elders from Ephesus: "I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house. . . . Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God."
In other words, if we are going to make a big deal about Acts 15-16:4 in the PPSA or the Notices of Excommunications as was done, I don’t see Paul, Barnabas, Judas and Silas just dumping the letter from the synod on folks and saying 'get back to us, if you have any questions and we'll set up a private appointment.'
Rather I see a very public ministry of exhortation, encourgement and teaching going on regarding the "decrees for to keep" of that synod. Which is precisely what has not happened regarding the PPSA as was promised in March, (much more the PPSA is not what was promised in January.) If you don’t have a problem with all that, well, good on you, brother. But I do and I am not going to apologize about it. Neither do I have to. The apostles were out there in person having public teaching sessions in Acts 15 – as should have been done at least in Albany and Edmonton on the PPSA, but hasn’t been done and won’t be. (Why not? Because we’re the elders and we are not going to let excommunicated individuals set the agenda. Never mind, that you promised. Never mind that it is a biblical agenda. Never mind the First Term of Communion.) Again Paul and Silas didn’t say 'let's come over to a corner and talk about it privately' as the leading edge and main emphasis of their ministry.
Even further, if my comments on all this offends you, you need to realize that the oath was a declaration of war and the sooner you get used to it, the better. Neither did I start it, but God willing, I will finish it. No term of membership [should be "oath"] can be required of any child of God to the point they must surrender their conscience at the behest or dictate of any officer or any court in any church of Christ worthy of the name. It is that simple.
Neither will I even deny that this post is a disorderly way to go about business, but just like the public email scandals in January – March and June – July last year, you really need to complain to somebody else about that. They have already broken trail and set an example, much more destroyed the public perception of their credibility to equitably and forthrightly deal with the questions and issues that come before the church by their toleration of the behavior of their approved surrogates and proxies in those public scandals. Consequently disorder reigns which is the way the cookie crumbles in the real world, much more these are, as we have been told so often for so many different reasons and things, extraordinary times.
But enough for now.
Further Remarks on the PPSA can be found at:
http://reformedveritas.blogspot.com/2007/01/jan-4-07-intro-to-further-remarks-on-q1.html
and A Vindication of the Charge of Ministerial Unfaithfulness at:
http://reformedveritas.blogspot.com/2006/12/dec-28-06-vindication-of-charge-of.html
if the links are broken.
[As the above mentions, the same thing goes regarding a "Vindication of a Faithful Minister". While I never received it, if people are going to put me on a mass mailing list with a bunch of gratuitous congratulatory gush in reply to it, however sincere, you had better expect some kind of answer. Though I missed the opportunity at the moment to reply at large, I am throwing it in now for good measure. After all, one of the sayings attributed to John Knox, was: "spare no arrows." ]
Thank you very much.
cordially yours,
in Christ
Bob S.
A Disaffected Brethren
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